The CHASIcast tackles the complexities of addiction and aid in this episode. Join host Dr. Martha Dow and her guest Dr. Amber Gazso, Professor of Sociology at UFV’s School of Culture, Media, and Society, as they discuss the challenge of balancing government assistance with substance use, and how lessons learned in research from Ontario could change the equation elsewhere – including here in B.C.
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CHASIcast voice-over
Coming up on the CHASIcast …
Dr. Amber Gazso
What is constructed in policy can never be perfectly mirrored in individuals’ lives.
CHASIcast voice-over
Dr. Amber Gazso, Professor of Sociology at UFV’s School of Culture, Media, and Society, talks about the challenge of balancing government assistance with substance use, and how lessons from research in Ontario could change the equation elsewhere.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Might we shift the discourse about addiction? … And how might that prompt us to think differently and do things differently?
CHASIcast voice-over
The complexities of addiction and aid, in this episode of the CHASIcast.
CHASIcast voice-over
From UFV’s Community Health and Social Innovation Hub, this is the CHASIcast: a program dedicated to bringing experts and insights to the issues that shape our lives, because Words Have To Matter. Now, here’s your host, Dr. Martha Dow.
Martha Dow
So I’m very excited on today’s CHASIcast to have Dr. Amber Gazso, who is a colleague and a friend, and so been really excited about the possibility of having you on.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Thank you so much. I’m delighted to be here and excited to see what we come up with in this conversation.
Martha Dow
Yeah, great. So – and also, congratulations, you have a new book. So we’re looking forward to hearing a little bit more about that. And you’re also a faculty associate here at CHASI. So, thanks for all of your support.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Oh, no, thank you. I’m delighted to be part of such an exciting opportunity here at UFV. And to grow and work with everyone in CHASI –
Martha Dow
Great!
Dr. Amber Gazso
– and to settle into UFV even better through such a strong community organisation.
Martha Dow
Oh, nice. Yeah, we’re enjoying having you here! Could we start just talking a little bit about your work? And you know, sort of – you’re relatively new to UFV at this point, but tell us a little bit about the journey, if you could.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Yeah, yeah, thank you. So generally, I think I’ll talk a bit about just my research areas, if that’s helpful, and kind of how I think of myself as a researcher. So I tend to, when prompted, define myself as a feminist sociologist. Most of my work kind of moves through different research areas. In general, these are gender and family relations, citizenship, social policies in the welfare, state, poverty and social inequality, and then research methods. And then, in those broad kind of areas, I would say, since actually my – completing my PhD at the University of Alberta, I just became really, really interested in trying to understand individuals’ relationships with social policies. And for the most part, I became really intrigued with trying to understand what it would be like to live a life, especially experiencing low income. And then – in a way, though, where you are … tied to, and shaped by your relationships with specific income support policies like welfare, or social assistance, as we know it in Canada. So a lot of my work has somehow, in some way, over several years kept kind of moving back and forth. But always walking back to trying to understand – especially low income individuals’ – experiences of raising kids, or navigating different parts of their everyday life. And then, yet, in a way, again, where … they are constrained, or in some way regulated by their very relationships with the policy that offers them say, income support.
Martha Dow
It’s so interesting, and yet – it feels so big, and yet not, because it’s so interconnected, like so many systems.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Yes, exactly. So I find when I said – like, I’m always walking back to kind of focusing on especially low income individuals’ relationships with welfare, I think it’s because a lot of what I’ve done over the years has, you know, thought about aging and families, or people as they’re moving into midlife, and how they have different relationships with other policies – whether it’s healthcare policy, or whether it’s families, navigating their relationships with child care policy and child benefits, etc. And so, yes, in much of my research, somehow, these policy systems are all interconnected, and they come to bear on much of what I do. And then just though … I just remember reading a particular paper in my PhD programme, and just being fascinated with the ways in which when you’re experiencing low income, welfare … or social assistance – we tend to call them welfare in the U.S. and in Canada, but really, we mean those provincial social assistance programmes. I’ve just been struck by how, in some way, they’re like a programme of last resort. So when people are able to access them when they are unemployed or when they are struggling, they’re not actually receiving incomes of any significance to their lives – in fact, they’re receiving below poverty level incomes. And so I just kept always coming back to that starting point. And then from there, often, in different things that I do, those other policy systems come up – they kind of “accidentally” come up. And they’re kind of there – they’re always around the surface. And in fact, that’s kind a project I’m doing right now, is trying to really wrestle with like, “well, then how do you manage relationships with more than one policy in your life?” And that’s kind of where I’m at right now in in, in my current research project. Yeah.
Martha Dow
Can you talk a little bit about what it’s like to do research that is so connected to policy? Because I think, you know, that’s not what lots of academics do.
Dr. Amber Gazso
No! [laughs]
Martha Dow
Can you talk about that bridge?
Dr. Amber Gazso
Yeah. I think what it is, is … I would say you, you hold some of the key to it all, Martha. So – so for people listening, Martha was one of my professors when I was a student at UFV, and it was a course on policy and public and policy valuation. And I think … what happened is, somewhere along the way, I became really intrigued with how – with our different governments and the creation of different policies to support people when they are in need, you have, embedded in policy, specific ideas and constructions of target populations, and you have embedded in policy specific ideologies about gender or family. And I think the best way to word it is, I became really intrigued with how you can read policy for what is implied. So it might not be specifically stated, but you can get a pretty good sense in reading even – the Ontario Works Act, for example, a pretty good sense of how families are defined, how they are constructed. And then I’ve always been fascinated with, w”ell, if that’s what it looks like on paper, then how does that play out in people’s individual lives?” Because, of course … what is constructed in policy … can never be perfectly mirrored in individuals lives. So gosh, I think I’ve talked around and whereabouts but I think I kind of got to … So I would say just the – I know, I’ll circle back. Yes, doing academic research on policy, for me, has always been more of what I tend to. I have learned to frame it as more critical social policy analysis. So I would never say that I evaluate policy or design programmes or then complete, like, an evaluation of the success of a programme, etc. I would say I’m much more interested in the … conceptualizations and ideologies that are constituted within a policy and then … how that is perceived and felt by people who experience them.
Martha Dow
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amber Gazso
There we go.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Yeah, it’s just fascinating – and so critical to how we understand the social problems that we’re all facing, and yet I think so often … almost taken for granted.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Totally, totally. So I think that’s where I where then I, yes, I spend a lot of time reading policy, like, like in that sounds like, Oh, that’s not very bad. No, but it’s fascinating, because, yeah, what we understand to be our social problems of interest, whether it’s for policymakers, governments, or even just as academics, they a very definition them them up them is always embedded in the policy and questions. So again, whether it’s Ontario Works Act, whether it’s child benefits policy for all of Canada, etc. Like, within those those very structures, you always have a particular well, I’ll be a sociologist, a particular social construction of particular groups of people. And I think when we understand that, that then we have a more robust way of understanding then social inequalities that materialise and why we can’t seem to fix the social problem, right? Because if we have these problematic constructions in place, then then how can you ever bring about change, because you just might keep reproducing the policy that creates the very construct contradictions in people’s lives? There we go.
Martha Dow
Yeah, that disconnect between how we construct a problem and a policy?
Dr. Amber Gazso
Yeah. And then that makes me – reminds me, in a lot of my work, I always tend to in some way, use that exact language. I’m always talking to somebody about “the policy disconnect,” or else, like, “the mixed messages,” or else – often I use the language, again, of “constraints,” but I’m trying to get at those paradoxes of … this is going on in real life, but this is how it’s constructed to be in policy, and the two don’t always meet. And so – I don’t know, I just kind of got stuck in that general area. And so, I do other research, too – that’s more, I suppose you’d say, ot exactly policy focus, but somehow in some way, I keep coming back. [laughs]
Martha Dow
[laughs] Can you talk – mostly because I’m so interested – where are we at in the discourse around earning social assistance, right? So I mean, obviously, you know, policy doesn’t deal with it explicitly in the way that historically it had in some ways. Where do you think we are in that public discourse?
Dr. Amber Gazso
In like earning, do you mean, like …
Martha Dow
That we have to – that our expectation is that people should earn their social assistance.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Yeah – yeah, ‘kay, got it.
Martha Dow
Yeah, sorry.
Dr. Amber Gazso
No, no, no, I definitely – I was, like, just clarifying, I was like, “I hope I’m on the right track.” Yes … I think … it’s great question you’re asking. The current research I’m doing … is focusing on … I’ll come at it a little bit sideways. The current project I’m doing is, I’m working with various cities in Ontario, and working with how they are administrating Ontario Works policy for low income folks who are unemployed, and in need of income support that is temporary. And Ontario – pardon me for speaking about Ontario, it’s just that’s where my last big chunk of research is from, so it will take me a bit longer to get up to speed on B.C. again.
Dr. Amber Gazso
But in Ontario, since the ’90s, the entire rhetoric with the Mike Harris government, etc., was all about welfare as a last resort, and how in order to receive any form of income support a month, one had to be engaged in employment activity. And these are like employment activity programming, so your conditions of eligibility to receive income support involved you conducting job searches, participating in education, etc. So there was always this sort of … this conditionality has that kind of … earning emphasis that you’re talking about. And then in my work, I would often write about that as sort of this orientation toward people having … assumed to have a very, like market-based relationship with income support – so meaning that they had to in some way demonstrate their employability, in order to be perceived as deserving then of income support.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Anyway, fast forward, and the ways that Ontario Works policy would make sure that happened is, if people didn’t meet the requirements, say, of their employability expectations, those set with case workers, they would then be sanctioned – so their benefits withheld for a month. So – that idea of earning, or the idea of “you must do something in order to receive this” has definitely been like a hallmark of, you know, post 1990s Ontario Works. But it also is – it goes way back, like, it’s got a much longer trajectory, which I won’t go into. But that idea that there’s always this conditionality and that, as a citizen, you are responsible to some way demonstrate earning, and if you do so then you are seen as deserving of support – that’s always been in place with social assistance.
Dr. Amber Gazso
However, so – back to the current project that I’m doing with these three cities. What’s interesting is, in Ontario, at least, there is some change, and movement towards … looking at alternative ways, if you will, of granting income support each month. So there’s actually been – there’s a few pilot programmes going on there through the province of Ontario. And it’s trying to move away from that kind of employability imperative and trying to meet people in a situation where there’s awareness that actually they’re dealing with multiple challenges in their life, unemployment might be just one of them. So I think what I’m trying to say is that I am curious what will happen in the next five to ten years as Ontario especially starts to kind of experiment with transitioning away a little bit from this, like, “you need to show your employability in order to receive income support.”
Dr. Amber Gazso
So that “work first” orientation of Ontario Works, that was really solidified in the 90s – I’m curious where that might go from 2023 onward, as these – as the cities are gently trying out new models of ensuring that – at the end of day, ensuring people are receiving some semblance of income, but also maybe administering it through a different discourse, one not so much tied to “you must earn,” but one tied to, like, “what do you” – almost like a shift to, like, “what else might you need?” And then how can we link your eligibility to that? So I think, what, in answer to your question, it’s the – I’m curious if the discourse will start to shift a bit, is the best way to word it. And then how I’m always – I’ll be fascinated how if, on the page, there’s this interest in – the current buzzwords are “life stabilisation,” and a “holistic model” of Ontario Works delivery. So that’s, on paper, the current discourse that’s emerging. And I’ll be curious, because of the way I like to do these things is – will we see disconnects as we move along? Or will we see tensions between … these older neoliberal ideas of work first, and these apparently newer ideas of life stabilisation, a holistic model, etc.
Martha Dow
That’s great, thank you. That’s a perfect time for us to actually –
Dr. Amber Gazso
[laughs]
Martha Dow
– to talk a bit about your book. Because one of the things – so the book is “Substances, Welfare, and Social Relations: Breaking Stigma, Pursuing Hope.” And when I read that title, and I love … as I looked at your book, this emphasis around hope, and sort of thinking about what hope means in, you know, 2024. And as you’re talking about wondering what the future will look like, in many ways, can you tell us a bit about, you know, what inspired the book? What … it’s about, from your perspective?
Dr. Amber Gazso
Yeah, yeah – the book really came out of … research I had done for several years in Ontario, where again, I kept in some way doing research with … people experiencing low income, and with their relation – and with them telling me stories of their relationships with Ontario Works policy. And then just by accident, in the way that happens with the way we – at least as a qualitative researcher, the way I engage in sampling, and kind of snowballing from initial participants and like building up the sample through word of mouth, etc., I kept accidentally – I say this “accidentally” – I kept accidentally meeting people where we’d be sitting, having conversations, and then somehow in the course of the conversation, they would share that they were also working through substance use challenges.
Dr. Amber Gazso
And … because of the nature of the past projects I’ve done, often, these were people who had children, whether they were living with children and parenting with children, or whether they were co-parenting with their children actually living in the care of others, but somehow involved in their child’s lives. And what I – so the book is really inspired by a burning question I had: “well, what is going on? What is going on for people then who are experiencing low income, and – and also working through a substance use challenge?” And then I kept thinking, “and then what’s going on in terms of like – how is Ontario Works policy … defining this population, or targeting this population? And what are the expectations of them?” Which goes back to your question about, like – the earning … of what do you need to do in order to receive income support? And so the book really came out of those kinds of questions.
Dr. Amber Gazso
And so I set out to do the work. And I was – I’m very thankful for some partnerships I was able to develop with the Toronto Employability and Social Services … department of the City of Toronto. In no way does my book speak in any part about them – these are all my ideas, and so in no way am I offering, like, any recommendations or critique of the city. Rather, I’m just pointing out that I was able to partner with people working directly with the city in its administering of Ontario Works – anyway, and through a lot of discussions with them, was able to put together a project where where I interviewed people who were indeed … accessing Ontario Works, but also self-defined as either experiencing a current substance use challenge or as in recovery. And so the book kind of really came out of earlier research and then my interest in partnering with cities to try to, like … develop a more stronger understanding of people’s multiple challenges.
Dr. Amber Gazso
And then … when I was writing it, though, and thinking about it, and it’s very common in – you know this – when you’ve done policy work, it’s very common to say, “and now I recommend,” or else, “these are the policy implications of my work.” So I was really aware that the normal outcome of policy-related research, whether it’s critical social policy, or whether it’s policy evaluation research, is to have these recommendations or these implications. And I remember thinking, “this isn’t working for me,” because I’m hearing something different in the stories people are telling me, and I’m hearing that actually what really needs to happen is we all collectively, all humans, really need to rethink about how we deliberately or sometimes unconsciously stigmatise folks who are living with some form of addiction, and and how one way we might be able to start to to, to do that is to invoke hope.
Dr. Amber Gazso
And I think – I wrestled a lot with even … playing with the idea of hope, because I’m aware that – there are publications in the last ten years where people are woefully saying “hope is gone,” and you know, “it doesn’t exist.” And I remember thinking, “yeah, I can’t do that, because I hear hope in the stories that people are telling me.” So I kind of – the book, in the end, concludes on a note different than recommendations and implications – and it concludes on: “Might we shift the discourse about addiction? Might we put that into practice in our our social assistance or welfare policies? And how might that prompt us to think differently, and do things differently?” And then, for sure, I conclude more on a – “Here you go! Let’s all get thinking about shifting the discourse!” And I try to cultivate, like, mobilisation, if you will.
Martha Dow
Can you talk a little bit about that? So … what does it look to engage with, you know, a praxis of hope?
Dr. Amber Gazso
Oh, yeah. [laughs] I can try! I think, for … the way I’ve articulated it in the book is I … talk at length about how – in the final chapter – how, with certain … social problems, such as, like, people who are low income, and they are living with substance use challenges, there can be a tendency to … collectively feel hopelessness, or to feel like this is a problem that persists and it’s just going to keep persisting. And – I wanted to instead think about, like – what if we responded to our family, our friends, our loved ones, to people we live with in our communities, with – a general feeling of hope for what may change, or what may come to be? And so, the language I use most often in the book is “actionable hope.”
Dr. Amber Gazso
And so – to try to put that into policy terms as closely as possible, that’s simply where, if someone is sitting across from their welfare caseworker, and they’re talking about dreams and ideas they have for the future, if the welfare caseworker meets them with a general orientation of hopefulness for their future, they may then be present and ready to work with someone, to provide more supports, to work harder with the discretion they do have to support that person as they try to pursue new pathways.
Dr. Amber Gazso
So the minutiae of how that looks in practice? No, I didn’t develop that in full. But the general orientation I tried to develop of, like, we can have policies that have hope at their very beginning, instead of policies such that they can – they can at times, as we all know, just to give you one really quick example, like – the very fact that welfare policies are below the poverty level, for all cities – it perpetuates poverty. So, if we can instead have a different orientation, maybe we can even dream of policies that finally do provide people with a more reasonable income, or “basic income” as people like to talk about. Yeah.
Martha Dow
It’s so interesting, right? And I really appreciate that you’re able to take so many really big sector conversations and bring them together, right? Because these – yeah, these are … big, big issues. How do you feel when people call them “wicked problems?”
Dr. Amber Gazso
“Wicked problems?” Yeah, that’s a good question. I would say both sad and angry as basic feelings. Because, on the one hand, sad that – problems can always be worked on, if you will, or resolved, or we can always move forward. But there are times when we get kind of stuck, where we think there’s … problems that are just impossible to solve. So that would make me sad – the anger would be me saying, in my view, low income and living with addiction are not social problems. They’re part of how we all live, each and every one of us. So – meaning, it may not be our own personal problem, but we know people we care about who are struggling with these things, or we as a community live collectively with people who are … working through these troubles. So in essence, they’re all our troubles. So the anger then spurs me onward to sort of say … I have a different orientation to these very everyday experiences that people are going through.
Dr. Amber Gazso
So I guess what I’m trying to get at is, in a roundabout way – and I’m sorry, I’m not really answering the question very well – but I would rather say, in a roundabout way in this book, I try really hard not to frame these as problems. To me, they’re they’re just part of life. And so like the whole idea of also injecting hope at the end was to say, like … we are all collectively living with this at all times – we might as well just get on with it and figure out, like, a positive, fruitful way forward, and resist, like – pejorative assumptions about people living with addiction, resist classifying addiction as deviants, etc. Actually, we are all so close to many of these apparent “wicked problems.” So I’d rather, like, displace that and say – let’s see what we can do living together with hope.
Martha Dow
Well, that’s a perfect place to end it. As long as you promise – I would love to have you come back and talk about these ideas around hope and the role of the university as it continues to …
Dr. Amber Gazso
Oh, that would be super fun.
Martha Dow
Yeah – I’d love to have that conversation if you’re willing. Yeah. All right. Thanks very much for being here.
Dr. Amber Gazso
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Martha Dow
Our Knowledge Mobilization Team includes Jeff Mijo-Burch, Kristen Bencze, Andrea Moorhouse, Frankie Fowle, Mara Penner, Sharon Strauss, and Emma Hones. Our theme music is by Chris Majka. I’m Dr. Martha Dow. Thank you for listening, and we’ll see you next time here on the CHASIcast.
CHASIcast voice-over
The CHASIcast is a production of the Community Health and Social Innovation Hub at the University of the Fraser Valley in Abbotsford, British Columbia.